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 Post subject: San Antonio and Texas
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:50 am 
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San Antonio sends:
DE Marquis McKenzie
CB Jimmy Fultz
Honolulu's 2052 4th rounder


Texas sends:
2nd rounder (2052)
3rd rounder (2052)


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:30 am 
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Week 8 is the final week for trades, while we just finished week 8 and are into week 9. I'll allow trades to happen during this week before we sim week 9.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Thanks commish.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Why even have a trade deadline if we allow trades after the deadline?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Why even have a trade deadline if we allow trades after the deadline?
Why do you think Toots, it's part of the game.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:14 pm 
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We agree and will have to make a couple cuts to fit the two players onto the roster.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:09 pm 
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We agree and will have to make a couple cuts to fit the two players onto the roster.
We'll do a midweek on monday and you can cut them.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Why even have a trade deadline if we allow trades after the deadline?
Why do you think Toots, it's part of the game.
Dude if you're going to allow this trade, you might as well just make the trade deadline week 9 because you are just opening this to happen again in the future.

Next season I may make a trade after Week 8, would that trade be denied? You allowed it this year, so why not again next season?

Do you see what kind of issue this causes by allowing the trade?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:55 am 
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Why even have a trade deadline if we allow trades after the deadline?
Glass houses big fella.

This is far more mistake than advantage unlike some other leniencies that JJ has granted this season. And he is the commish, so best just to shut it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:01 am 
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My two cents.....

I think it was probably a mistake. I know i looked at my record and made the same mistake (because of my bye week). Even going so far as to update my trade block Friday. Then i realized week 8 had passed when i saw JJs post. I dont mind whichever way this goes for this trade, but i think we all relearned a lesson here and should live by the rule in the future.

Both the teams involved also had early bye weeks.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:29 am 
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Hey Guy's I'm allowing this because technically we haven't simmed week 9 yet so I'm flexible. I'll run the trades on monday after the midweek.

And Toots I'll do the same thing next season so if it's before the week 9 sim has ran, I'll allow trades. Case Closed...

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:21 am 
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So in case anyone is wondering, the trade deadline is Week 9, not Week 8 apparently

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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So in case anyone is wondering, the trade deadline is Week 9, not Week 8 apparently
Now you are testing my patience. Read my last post for your answer.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:08 am 
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Done

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Thank you.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:50 pm 
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I ride the fence on this one. Several years back I made an offer to a player that was being freed up and I missed the one forum thread discussing the issue. I made an offer and signed the player but because the rule was posted one day before the export, it was my duty to see it and not make the offer. I had to eat the nearly $30m bonus (or whatever it was, it was a lot) I lost when he was cut from my roster and it fucked my cap for the next few seasons. My ignorance of the temporary and sudden rule posting was not sufficient defense and my franchise got fucked in the ass for my "mistake". Bitter? No. Just a little disappointed we didn't have much discussion or other options to resolve the issue. That event supports an easy disallowance of this trade. Ignorance of what week it is has no merit and the trade deadline is a known and perennial rule.

All that being said, I like where we are at as a league. We are fairly easy going yet the core owners are passionate and participate; we are involved in live drafts/events and do so with civility; and we tend to be resilient despite issues that arise or changes that occur in game. The fact that the players involved had been posted on the trading block for some time and there's no sudden change in franchise direction based on Week 8's results (i.e. sudden fire sale or introduction of some elite player not previously shopped) I would not be upset if the trade is processed as ruled.

This does set a precedent and will have an impact on future rulings.

My only other contention is that if any players impacted by this trade and resulting transactions had any input on the outcome of Week 8's results, Week 8 would need to be resimmed with those transactions in place. If they did not play or impact the outcomes of their games then all should be well.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:11 pm 
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TT I respectfully disagree 100%
Resimming impacts way too many things to be used in a trade situation.
If it is ok to have players resigned after week 1 because a GM forgot then an extension to the trade deadline should be ok too.
Same laid back approach imo
You can’t have hard rules where you want them and soft ones where it suits you.
Most leagues process trades after games are played, so since a midweek was run on Monday to process that last trade, the players were available week 9...just like any other trades that were processed all season.
The fact that it has been stated that this will also be possible in the future removes any unfair advantage for any team.
I’m not sure FA signings where one team makes an offer can be compared to a trade where 2 teams are agreeing to a deal... but I wasn’t here when that happened so I don’t know the whole story.
At the end of the day... smitty made the decision ... which is the commissioners job
I’m sure if he wanted a vote he would have asked for one


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:28 pm 
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TT I respectfully disagree 100%
Resimming impacts way too many things to be used in a trade situation.
If it is ok to have players resigned after week 1 because a GM forgot then an extension to the trade deadline should be ok too.
Same laid back approach imo
You can’t have hard rules where you want them and soft ones where it suits you.
Most leagues process trades after games are played, so since a midweek was run on Monday to process that last trade, the players were available week 9...just like any other trades that were processed all season.
The fact that it has been stated that this will also be possible in the future removes any unfair advantage for any team.
I’m not sure FA signings where one team makes an offer can be compared to a trade where 2 teams are agreeing to a deal... but I wasn’t here when that happened so I don’t know the whole story.
At the end of the day... smitty made the decision ... which is the commissioners job
I’m sure if he wanted a vote he would have asked for one
RZ,

I wasn't voting, I was merely expressing my opinion and doing so after the fact. I was not trying to influence the decision that was already made and was just expressing my thoughts on the matter.

I am still on the fence on this one and could be swayed either way. It doesn't matter what my opinion is but I also know JJ welcomes the opinions of owners. I've played with him as a co-owner and with him as commish long enough to know that he is open to honest dialogue and knows I am not questioning or criticizing his decision.

Your statement, "You can’t have hard rules where you want them and soft ones where it suits you." is precisely the reason I am not 100% sold on the trade being allowed and means we are both in complete agreement.

The trade deadline is on the calendar, it's not new. it's a cut and dried rule. You miss the deadline, you miss the deadline. It's no different then missing a Franchise Tag export. It sucks, but many owners have learned the hard way. The good part is we are a bunch of easy going guys and our commish let's us post who we intend to tag so if we miss it or have technical issues, we still get our tags in. but if you do neither and miss the deadline, you don't get to tag them the next stage.

My example relates to this issue only in that I missed a post in a forum the day before an export. I did not get the benefit of the doubt or get a pass because I did not read a post about a temporary, non-standard change to our SOP. I was sentenced to 2+ seasons of cap-jail for that mistake. To be fair, in my case there weren't a lot of easy outs to fix the situation but not a lot of effort was made to find a different way to handle it either.

If you don't see how my example illustrates your statement about consistent rule enforcement, I don't know how to break it down any clearer. I was not aware of a temporary, posted-in-a-single-thread-prior-to-a-stage rule but my ignorance of that rule was no defense. In this case, we had two owners who made a simple mistake of not knowing what week it was even though the trade deadline is a known, in-game, multi-thread reminder"ed", standing rule. Per your statement that I 100% agree with the rule is the rule; ignorance of what week it is does not excuse missing the deadline. If the trade deadline is Week 8, it's Week 8, period.

The problem is this is a trade that's been on the blocks for weeks, there's clearly no hanky-panky going on, and there's a complete absence of any threat to league integrity. This is why I have conflict - I don't see any reason we should care about the trade occurring during a midweek. Oh, except all the shit that spewed from my keyboard above. lol

As far as re-sims go, they are almost never the right answer. If a re-sim is needed, that means whatever was trying to be fixed got even more broke.

Whenever I bring up a re-sim I am doing that to be an extremist. However, I was also trying to make a point. If a QB throws for 4 TD's to win a Week 8 contest and is then allowed to be traded between weeks 8 & 9 without re-simming Week 8, can't you see how that is a major breach of league integrity? The only way to allow a trade like that would to say it occurred before the Week 8 trade deadline and therefore would require a re-sim of Week 8. Of the 30 teams not involved in the trade, 15 of those teams would possibly welcome it and 15 would most definitely be opposed. That would be the losers and winners of those games respectively of course. If we get to a point where a re-sim is required (outside of major technical issues) that means something got fucked up more by trying to fix it.

Like I said, I am on the fence and have mixed feelings on this. I don't think it's a big deal because this trade was clearly in the works and likely finalized by the time the Week 8 sim went through. I respect JJ's call to allow it but I also acknowledge the stance of those pointing out the trade occurred after the trade deadline and that by itself is an issue.

I think it's healthy for us to have discussions about these issues. This is not to critique JJ's decision one way or the other or to cast stones at the trade. Open dialogue only helps JJ understand where we are at as owners and may help us as owners if we ever have a difficult situation that requires JJ to seek our input. We all have an opinion on this, I just happen to care enough to share mine. Regardless of the sarcasm I sometimes fail at filtering out, I do appreciate discussion and debate as long as it is on topic. I actually wish more owners cared enough to share their opinion.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Your statement, "You can’t have hard rules where you want them and soft ones where it suits you." is precisely the reason I am not 100% sold on the trade being allowed and means we are both in complete agreement.

The trade deadline is on the calendar, it's not new. it's a cut and dried rule. You miss the deadline, you miss the deadline. It's no different then missing a Franchise Tag export. It sucks, but many owners have learned the hard way. The good part is we are a bunch of easy going guys and our commish let's us post who we intend to tag so if we miss it or have technical issues, we still get our tags in. but if you do neither and miss the deadline, you don't get to tag them the next stage.
We Clearly see this from 180 degree different perspectives

My point was that the deadline to sign players is also a hard rule
and we allow that to be done after week 1 has passed -- which i think is a good thing...a nice feature that smitty offers that most other leagues do not.

if THAT hard rule isnt enforced, then I see no reason why the Trade Deadline needs to be a hard rule that is enforced
A Franchise tag would require a file to be sent in so it really doesnt compare to either of the above situations
I also disagree with your comment about a QB throwing 4 TD passes week 8 and then being traded week 9
you can not go back in time...so the game would stand in my opinion
you can however...extend a deadline or change a rule
a resim there would be ridiculous

I also like open discussion and since none of these situations has affected me or my team, and probably never will, I have no skin in this game and am not really too concerned. Im happy to allow the commish to make a ruling and then simply follow that ruling.

Im not sure what the end gain is to have a lengthy discussion post on a thursday and friday after the trade was done on a mondqy and games were played on tuesday and thursday.
but...everyone has opinions...and other things :P


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:27 pm 
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We Clearly see this from 180 degree different perspectives

My point was that the deadline to sign players is also a hard rule
and we allow that to be done after week 1 has passed -- which i think is a good thing...a nice feature that smitty offers that most other leagues do not.

if THAT hard rule isnt enforced, then I see no reason why the Trade Deadline needs to be a hard rule that is enforced
You didn't mention the "house rules" stuff previously, so now I get your point.

After Jim finally made strides in the renegotiation area, eliminating signings during the season was such a departure from reality and I never understood that change. I agree, it is a nice perk JJ provides, but it is a house rule. If he did it for some teams but not others, would you feel the same?

Your argument has persuaded me to pick a side of the fence and I guess I'm choosing Toots' side. I've updated my notes to reflect our new house rule of a Week 9 trade deadline, and I'm perfectly ok with it if that's how it will be enforced going forward.

My basis for any rule is league integrity, period. It cannot jeopardize it. Setting precedents for rule bends opens the door for dishonest owners to take advantage of what we have. I'm not worried, as this league has a good eye for the ne'erdowells and I have complete faith is JJ's ability to sniff them out.

I didn't realize there was a statute of limitations on opinions. It seems we are the only two discussing this and half of us don't know why. I'll just keep my opinions to myself and just submit my exports like a good little soldier.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:38 pm 
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LMAO
Not sure if that last part is sarcasm or not, but I hope it is. You’re a good guy and a good GM, and have tenure here so I’m sure smitty would hold your opinions in very high regard. I’m just not sure a back and forth is going to end up all that productive after the trade has already been processed and games have been played so... I guess I don’t see the point.
So why am I replying again?
LOL I don’t know


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:53 am 
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Hey Guy's, I allowed this trade because technically we hadn't simmed week 9 yet so I was trying to be flexible. I could have been very black and white about this situation but I tried to be chill and make a fair decision for both parties. Again I always try to be fair to all and it's tough so I tried to make the best decision I could within the bounds of the house and game rules.

I really didn't think this was going to be an issue or I would have had the whole league vote on it, like I have in the past. That said, I'm going to put a poll out to see how the whole league feels.

Also, I love these kinds of discussions they only make our league better so I encourage owners to participate in them.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:08 am 
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Hey Guy's, I allowed this trade because technically we hadn't simmed week 9 yet so I was trying to be flexible. I could have been very black and white about this situation but I tried to be chill and make a fair decision for both parties. Again I always try to be fair to all and it's tough so I tried to make the best decision I could within the bounds of the house and game rules.

I really didn't think this was going to be an issue or I would have had the whole league vote on it, like I have in the past. That said, I'm going to put a poll out to see how the whole league feels.

Also, I love these kinds of discussions they only make our league better so I encourage owners to participate in them.
I think it was terrible decision that you allowed Texas, to get better after the trade deadline. Therefore putting me and the rest of the league at a disadvantage.

Either in the future the Deadline should actually be the deadline, or we should move it to week 9. I've always been one that works within the rules, so I didn't like seeing this trade allowed, especially since I've personally asked you to move the trade deadline in the past, but you rejected my request. I'm not angry about the trade but just disappointed in how it was handled.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:12 am 
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I'm of the opinion that the deadline should be a hard deadline and it should be tied to a defined moment on the sim calendar. What week in particular does not matter to me. However, sticking to the rule that trades must be completed prior to simulating that week's games is easy to understand and enforce.

So if I'm reading the poll correctly, you are saying that we will move the deadline back a week and it's a hard deadline.

I still think the teams involved forgot which week it was because they both had byes before the deadline. As I indicated earlier....I did the exact same thing, but no one took me up on any of my players before I realized what I had done wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:20 am 
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Just saw the poll. Please vote and give your opinions people!

I'm for moving the deadline to Week 9, but glad that we have a set rule coming.

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