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New Stage 2 File http://www.thecfl.us/forum/viewtopic.php?t=406	Page 1 of 2

Author:	GoldenEagle [ Fri Aug 20, 2004 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:	New Stage 2 File
Thanks to daed for hosting.... http://daedalus.fastmail.fm/files/cfl.zip

Author:	fantastic flying froggies [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New Stage 2 File
[quote121aad2="GoldenEagle"]Thanks to daed for hosting.... http://daedalus.fastmail.fm/files/cfl.zip[/quote121aad2] Thank you for sorting things out, guys.

Author:	Taco [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 5:21 am ]
Post subject:
Cool, let's get this thing rolling again. Is the final staff hiring stage tonight? We need an updated schedule.

Author:	JeeberD [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 9:44 am ]
Post subject:
Will the export that I sent in yesterday work or do I need to send another one?

Author:	3ric [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:46 am ]
Post subject:
No, that export will work if you don't want to base the new file on the changes that has been made in this league file. Sacramento stole away my head coach with some whopping salaries: $11 mil for the HC and $12 mil for the offensive coordinator... ...almost twice as much as the next highest-paid...

Author:	fantastic flying froggies [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:59 am ]
Post subject:
[quote7526a91="3ric"]Sacramento stole away my head coach with some whopping salaries: $11 mil for the HC and $12 mil for the offensive coordinator... ...almost twice as much as the next highest-paid... [/quote7526a91] We probably do need to think about some kind of staff salary cap for future seasons... I know Thul asked before the question the hiring phase, but methinks this is getting a bit out of hand...

Author:	dberner30 [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Yep
Agree with 3F.

Author:	Fonzie [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:
[quote3990442="3ric"]Sacramento stole away my head coach with some whopping salaries: $11 mil for the HC and $12 mil for the offensive coordinator... ...almost twice as much as the next highest-paid... [/quote3990442] That is [i3990442]absurd[/i3990442]. I third the motion to implement limits of some sort.

Author:	dberner30 [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:
Frankly that is cheating. It is blatant abuse of common sense and fundamental fairness. That is walking through a hole in the sim and should not be tolerated.

Author:	GoldenEagle [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:
I am reviewing the situtation. Week 3 will be done Sunday August 22nd. This is to give everyone a fiar chance at the new file.

Author:	3ric [ Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:
[quote438a52e="dberner30"]Frankly that is cheating. It is blatant abuse of common sense and fundamental fairness. That is walking through a hole in the sim and should not be tolerated.[/quote438a52e] It sucks, but we'll have to accept it for now since there wasn't a cap in place. But it's clear we need a rule to state what's fair and what isn't.

Author:	Taco [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:10 am ]
Post subject:
I don't think it is cheating because he asked beforehand. It was stated that there was no rule. I do agree that we need a rule, but since there wasn't a rule to break, it wasn't cheating. BTW, I didn't bid on any coaches because I want my team to be profitable, even if it doesn't mean anything in multi-player. But that's just me.

Author:	Thul [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:18 am ]
Post subject:
1) I asked beforehand if there were limits, rules, anything. There weren't. In fact, I have several posts asking if there are ANY rules in this league. 2) There ARE limits to what you can bid. In each case I bid the maximum my owner would let me. 3) All of the coaches and staff I bid on had at least 2-3 other offers in play besides mine. With that competition, am I supposed to assume that a bid of another couple million on top of the high bid is going to land me my target? The answer is no. Common sense says no. I bid aggressively, within the limits my owner put on me, to land the coachs I want. 4) Frankly I find the accusation that I abused anything offensive. They're your rules. I just play within them. How can you have fair bidding in an unlimited money system? Oh..so I'm supposed to assume bidding 1.5x the high bid is "fair" where bidding 2.5x the high bid is not? Give me a freaking break. Actually I was quite pleased that the owner did put limits on spending, because the whole notion of bidding in an unlimited money system seemed silly.

Author:	Thul [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:30 am ]
Post subject:
Dola - And for the record, I agree with the rest of you that there should be some rule(s). I'll welcome them gladly. My work on the HFL rules committee should be evidence enough that I can appreciate a fair and competitive system to work in. In fact, if you want to establish a limit and redo all the staff hiring from stage 1, then let's do it. I'm all for it. I'm going to be aggressive in whatever limits are set, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

Author:	GoldenEagle [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:45 am ]
Post subject:
No. I expected owners to follow common sense and bid with deceny and not take advantage. Last year, we did not need anything like this. But rest assured, in the future we will.

Author:	Thul [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:54 am ]
Post subject:
So, with 2-3 other offers competing with mine. What's "common sense"? What's "fair"? Upping it 500k? 2 million? 4 million? Doubling an offer? I found the top available coaches, bid at or slightly over their initial asking price, saw there was a bunch of competition (which beat out my initial offer) and then offered the highest amount I could within the system (which in most cases was about 2 - 2.5x the high bid) assuming the bidding would continue to be aggressive and heated. Edit: GE, since I'm apparently being "unfair and indecent", don't use my week 3 export. I was beaten out in my stage 1 offer for a defensive coordinator and made a max offer to another coordinator (I think it was Chicago's) for around 4 million...which apparently breaks whatever rule. I still don't think I did anything wrong, but I'll happily forfeit the 3rd export to appease those of you out to paint me as an "abusive and cheating" player.

Author:	Taco [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:01 am ]
Post subject:
I'm with ya, Thul. I don't think you did anything wrong.

Author:	3ric [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:
We're not going to redo anything. It's not your fault we don't have any rules for a situation like this.

Author:	dberner30 [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:
my accusation of Thul was harsh. Without a rule in place he didnt violate anything. Im a bit frustrated by the staff hiring. It has been a clusterfuck IMO. Believe it or not the process is fairly critical and I dont like the way it has developed. What is our schedule? When will we be done so I can be stuck with whatever loser ass scout and DC the computer picks out for me. My owner sets bullshit limits that dont allow competitive bids and other owners have the freedom to bid millions. I dont like it much. I believe in having rules and schedules and this whole mess has left a bad vibe (im not criticizing THul). I suggest we either move on and finish this debacle so I can get over it or start over with a fixed schedule and some limits. EIther way lets do it.

Author:	daedalus [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:
There IS a schedule, hence the "2005 Off Season Scheulde" stickied thread. It was followed until we had a technical difficulty. Because of that we went off schedule a little bit then the weekend came up and it is difficult to be certain if or when people will have time to get their exports done during the weekend so we have had a minor pause. I don't see a problem with it. This is my opinion but I do think you owe Thul an apology for bringing up the word 'cheat'. I disagreed with what he did and would have preferred he had not done it but what he did was not against the rule in place at the time (at least not the letter of the rules, even if whether or not it bends the spirit is debatable). In a way, I can sympathize with what Thul did. Last year, I lost both my punter and guard (2 of the best in the league at their respective positions) because I was hesitant about what increment to use to increase my offers. It's tough to determine what somebody else will do and I guess he felt he had to do what he can to get who he wants.

Author:	dberner30 [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:
just in case my post above was not interpreted as an apology to Thul I will be clear. Sorry for use of "cheat" in my post. It was too harsh and I let my frustration come through at him. Sticky posting a schedule doesnt do any good if we dont hold to it. I understand if we fall off schedule and thats fine. We just need to post a note updating everyone as to schedule. I still sit here wondering whey I cant get a simple offer on the board to a guy at all through both rds so far. SOmething is amiss in our staff hiring.

Author:	Thul [ Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:
First, thanks for the support or at least understanding that I wasn't trying to abuse the system. I figured that, since I apparently started this controversy, I would give a deeper look into how I bid.... I used Roosevelt Ford as an example of bidding trends when I submitted my exports (since he was my #1 target and the most popular). Here was that trend: Ford originally asked for only 4.82 million. Stage 1: I submitted a bid in the 5-6 million dollar range (if I remember correctly). Seattle had the high bid at 7.38 million (an increase of about 2.5 million or 52% over the asking price). There were 4 bids total after this stage. Stage 2: I knew I would have to bid much higher that Seattle's bid, with the initial 52% salary jump and the 3 other bids in the mix (plus any others that jumped in). My winning bid was 12.53 million (an increase of about 5 million or 68% over Seattle's bid). The double digits look scary, but my increase was only 16% higher than Seattle's original 52% increase. I have no clue what the other 3 bids (or more) ended up being during this stage, but I had to assume (at the time) that they were at least in the 11 million range, if people were trying to match or exceed the pace of bidding increases. I actually tried for a nice round 70% increase, but the owner wouldn't allow it, so I offered the max he would allow. At any rate, that was my thinking at the time. I know the numbers are still wild, admittingly, but with 4 bids for Ford (and 3 for Story), and with no limits (outside of what owners established) I assumed bids were going that way with or without me. And, btw, I used this same strategy to try and hire Shaun Fisher as my D. Coord. and my bid was beaten. His ending salary just ended up being less eye-popping, being in the single digits, but is still a pretty impressive new league high for Def. Coordinators and the 3rd highest in the league (so far).

Author:	wademoore [ Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:38 am ]
Post subject:
Wow... I am out of touch because of my new house and trying to get it ready to move in... and I have my OC snaked away on an absurd bid... I will not make the accusations of cheating, but I do feel that some things were done not in the "spirit of fairness"... Either way I would have lost out, but I think it is worth noting... for those who follow the IHOF... putting 140 people on your roster for training camp is not "cheating" if there is no rule, but it is definately not in the "spirit of fairness"... I would put this in the same category...

Author:	Thul [ Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:01 am ]
Post subject:
Well, all I can say to that is that a 68% increase over Seattle's opening bid didn't seem out of whack to me, when the former bid was a 52% increase. It's not like I just arbitrarily threw in some extra 1 and 0's, or increased it 100-200%. I'm still not sure what you would have considered a "fair" increase, over the starting bid of 7.4 million and 3 other people competing, Wade. I've never been in a no-limit league, but the fair vs unfair increments seems a bit nebulous to me. Am I supposed to just mirror Seattle's pattern and bid in 2.5 million increments (which still would have made for a 10 million bid, and was much less of an increase over Seattle's bid)? Would 4 million increments have been acceptable? It's not like I'm recklessly tacking on 10 million to the last offer here. Well anyways, I've said my piece and won't ramble on about it anymore. I'll just say one last time that, given the bidding patterns after stage 1 (which is all I had to go on), I honestly didn't think my bid was unfair or against the spirit of the game/competition. I don't enjoy playing that way. [quote7f6ee97="wademoore"] Either way I would have lost out, but I think it is worth noting... for those who follow the IHOF... putting 140 people on your roster for training camp is not "cheating" if there is no rule, but it is definately not in the "spirit of fairness"... I would put this in the same category...[/quote7f6ee97]

Author:	wademoore [ Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:08 am ]
Post subject:
Well... a key thought here may be that the original increase was not necessarily "fair" in my book either... All I can say for sure is we now have an OC making TWICE as much as any other coach besides the HC on his own team... so we have two coaches making twice as much as any other coach, and they are both on the same team... i'm sorry, but if something does not seem shady about that you are insane... Roosevelt Ford was asking for something like 4.8 mil if I remember... so that has been tripled... your Offensive Coordinator now makes $5mil more than any player on the team... I could throw many things out there... they all point to abusing the limits of the game...

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